Brett Martin (Charge Ventures) and I both teach different semesters of the Digital Literacy for Decision Makers course at Columbia University Business School. In this conversation on digital education, Brett and I share our definitions, notes, curriculum, slides, and experience teaching digital literacy to MBAs.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- Brett’s definition of digital literacy
- How to tell if someone is digitally literate
- Various types of digital literacy
- The digital literacy syllabus at Columbia University
- Digital literacy examples
- A brief history of the internet
- Why MBAs at Columbia University are learning to code
Who is Brett Martin?
Brett Martin is the co-founder and managing partner of Charge Ventures, which works with early-stage companies trying to get funding here in Brooklyn, New York. Brett has quite a legacy of working on some fantastic products. He co-founded a company called Switch, which is a mobile job discovery application, as well as Sonar, an app that I used to use back in the day. He’s written for Harvard Business Review and helped launch a little known website called Vice. Yeah, he helped launch the original Vice website. So, he’s done quite a few amazing things.
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How do you define digital literacy?
Brett Martin: I remember when Columbia first asked me to come and teach the Digital Literacy class. I myself had to look up digital literacy on Wikipedia: “A set of competencies required for fully participating in a knowledge society.” And [from that definition] it sounded like six three hour classes were gonna be a small period of time to teach all of that.
So I guess I ultimately define digital literacy as:
Digital Literacy: The tools, principals and the context that you need to make decisions in a digital world.
What is digital literacy? And how does one become digitally literate?
Brett Martin: When Columbia University first reached out to me, I think it was initially structured as a coding class. And everyone says, “Oh, is this class gonna teach MBAs how to code?” And obviously, you’re not gonna teach anyone how to code well in 18 hours. I mean, you can help them build a website, which I’ve had you come and do for our class multiple times which people really loved. [But] you’re obviously not gonna master coding.
So the way we structured the Digital Literacy class is with this metaphor of a “digital stack.” All the way down from hardware, the bottom layer, and the software and code are on top of that, and then sort of front end design and digital product design on top of that, and the art of project management, which is the art of building software, which involves a lot more than just writing it, as you know.
And then on top of that, sort of the digital marketing and distribution and sort of where social media would sit layer of how digital technologies ultimately come in touch with the people that use them. So that’s kind of how I think of it as a technology stack.
Chris: Cool, I like that analogy for the class, because for newcomers to the digital world and technology, you may not understand this, but the model of a technology stack is one of the primary concepts of the internet technology.
I’ll try to repeat what you said to make it clear: There’s the infrastructure which is like the Internet, the wires, etc. And on top of that are the applications that we have, and then there’s this layer of people that use it, and then all the other on and on and on.
What are the takeaways from Digital Literacy for Decision Makers at Columbia University Busines School?
Brett Martin: One is ability – digital literacy is an ability to read the news. So you see headline after headline coming out, now tech is everywhere in the headlines, right? Tech used to be this vertical, unto itself, and now digital is everywhere. It’s in every headline, whether it’s talking about business or talking about politics at Cambridge Analytica. So how do you give people a foundation or this is where I would say the principals?
How do you give people a foundation and understanding of what are the technocratic forces that are pushing along digital technologies that are driving all of these headlines? And so in this sense, you might read about self-driving cars on the one hand, and then you might learn about artificial intelligence in the next article. And if you didn’t know that both of those technologies, those trends are actually highly related, right? They’re both being driven by machine learning, which is the use of programming with data.
Enabling machines to adjust a bunch of data and then make decisions based on that. And self-driving cars are being driven by these machine learning algorithms that can help cars see. And artificial intelligence is being driven by machine learning algorithms that are assisting computers to see or identifying patterns in data. You wouldn’t know that those two are connected.
So I think that’s what I meant by principals, is kind of like what are these underlying forces that are pushing everything?
Chris: I love the way you describe technology as this tectonic force that’s kind of moving all these industries. You know, one of the new sections that I added to my Digital Literacy course this past semester was this section called “The History of the Internet” because it’s something I’ve been studying a lot, and specifically around decentralization as this kind of tectonic force as you’re saying that is influencing.
So if you’re reading the news, and whether you’re looking at Bitcoin, the “New Internet” or Napster — then you can identify that real force behind all those events. Which in this case is internet decentralization.
Chris: For the two years that Napster was around, it really changed everything. Really, that’s kind of the tectonic force there that is influencing all these changes. And then I look at new changes that are coming. But you know, I don’t look at AI as much in my course. We only have one – it’s a little bit more blockchain and decentralization.
Digital literacy has a way to be free and giving yourself tools to make your own destiny in your job and your career on the Internet. I think that’s a little bit more of the feeling.
What larger trends are driving tech at the moment?
Brett Martin: What are these trends, and what’s driving those trends? And people give the context that they can use to read the news coherently. And then we talked about principals. So you’re talking about decentralization, and so one of the principles that we talk about in our class is client-server architecture.
And so, the idea that you go from having hard mainframes, then you have PC’s on every desk, and then you go back to cloud computing, and then you have edge computing. So you have this kind of back and forth, this pendulum between a thick client and a thin client, and sort of that core client-server architecture, you could probably explain here better than I can.
But it’s a principal, it’s a design pattern that keeps rearing its head over and over and over again in tech. So, when people talk about this new trend of decentralization, it’s like well that’s already happened multiple times in the course of the history of the Internet.
Chris: That’s great. Yeah, the idea of looking for design patterns helps us look – by looking at the past, we can look at the future for trends. And I think that’s really why I’m excited to teach the course because I think it’s so encompassing of life these days and so many decisions that we make.
I also believe that most people don’t understand these conversations about the future of the Internet because they don’t understand the Internet today. And so, if you don’t have the kind of literacy to understand what’s going on, to begin with, everything just seems new. It’s new, it’s new, it’s new.
But it’s like, what’s there new about the new Internet? These patterns have been happening for decades now, and it’s just having the skills to put them in context, in principals, all the things that you’re talking about to observe them and make sense of it all.
Brett Martin: I mean the fact that the Internet is actually a set of pipes filled with cats?
Chris: Well, that was true for about a decade, and then they got the cats out.
That was a joke, just to anybody listening, that was a joke. Just to be clear. People that are on the Internet right now looking for the cats. They’re there. They made their way onto webpages.
Brett Martin: What was weird that you found out while researching it? I mean there was a lot of weird stuff on the Internet.
How did the internet start?
Chris: I mean the most exciting thing that I think is just the genesis, how the internet started. It goes all the way back to Sputnik — the Russians launch Sputnik, and all of the sudden Eisenhower in the 1950s is scrambling because, “Oh my God, America’s not gonna be a superpower.”
And in retaliation, Eisenhower launches two programs to help America more or less be great again or whatever. One of the programs is NASA, and the other is ARPA.
ARPA is the agency which invents the early-Internet in 1969.
All of the smartest people in the world were just trying to figure out a way to get information from point A to point B, in the case there was a nuclear attack [the communication network would be backed up and not fail.]
The questions ARPA was asking went like this: If there was a nuclear attack, and America was attacked, how do we preserve our information so that it can’t centrally be destroyed? If D.C. is destroyed, how do we make sure there’s copies and redundancy of community so that the entire power grid of communication basically doesn’t go down?
This was the problem, nuclear war. The answer became ARPANET which became the internet.
Brett Martin: One of my favorite parts about teaching the history of the Internet is that I think folks who grew up when we grew up, you were always, look at the machine, the machine would do something totally counterintuitive, and it just wouldn’t make sense. And you’d be like, man, why did people ever build things like that?
Like, who came up with this idea when they were setting up their computer or trying to find a file in an old DOS system. And you learn that the Internet was not this perfectly designed, top-down architecture. But rather like this very organic, bottoms up a system that grew. I mean at one point when ARPANET was around, there were multiple different networks. I think it was Tech 25 and these others. There was no commercial activity allowed on ARPANET, so people set up the Internet for pure commerce. And you know, you learn that all these weird, different systems have to interconnect somehow.
And that was the brilliance of the Internet, getting everything to work together, so everyone could kind of do their own thing and still be connected, without some sort of top-down approach. Which is kind of weird in the sense that today’s internet is pretty centralized, right?
What does decentralization mean?
Chris: That’s the debate. It’s this kind of centralization versus decentralization debate. I recently asked a few friends, I was curious if they knew what the word decentralization means, as far as the Internet goes. And because I’m writing about it a lot lately, so I emailed a few people. And three people told me they didn’t know what it meant, and they thought it had to do with banking or something. Which may or may not be true.
But the point is that in the tech world, the word decentralization seem almost cliché because its so overused. At the same time a lot of people have no idea that it’s going on.
One example to follow up with your vision of this image of putting all these Internets together is that the Internet solved the problem of having all these national networks. Like Americanet, or America Online, or ChinaNet, or FranceNet. And then if we did that, there wouldn’t be so much of the innovation and sharing and open source that we can all benefit from.
But at the same time, as you said, the Internet’s so centralized. We’re kind of reverting back to that. So right now, there is really like ChinaNet. Basically, China has its own internet, more or less. It’s kind of censored version of it.
So yeah, this debate I think is fascinating. It’s definitely at least a few classes in digital literacy. I think when I teach it, it’s important to understand.
Brett Martin: Yeah I mean, clearly there’s the bifurcation going on with China and everywhere else in the world. But even if you just look at the top 20 most downloaded apps in 2018, according to 247wallst.com, (I’m not really sure how reputable that is). Anyway have YouTube, owned by Google. Instagram, owned by Facebook, Snapchat, independent. Messenger, owned by Facebook. Facebook app, owned by Facebook. Bitmoji, owned by Snapchat. Netflix, Google Maps, owned by Google and Gmail owned by Google, and Spotify, independent.
So what is that? Of those 10 spots – Amazon’s 11, by the way. Of those 10 spots, eight of them are owned by three companies. Only independents on there are Netflix and Spotify, which aren’t exactly small companies.
Chris: Yeah, exactly. And I wonder if that even includes Tencent, which is the Chinese company that most Americans don’t know and is one of the biggest companies in the world – it’s basically the Facebook of China. They own a variety of different apps. So yeah, there’s just a handful of players that have a lot of control over the flow of users and these systems, more or less. So it’s pretty fascinating.
I want to transition a little bit to the question if someone understands that they should become digitally literate, this is important to them, how would they become digitally literate? Like we have a sense of what it means, but how would you do that, maybe short from taking this course at Columbia University? What do you think?
Brett Martin: Yeah, we talked about this, for me, the first pillar is literacy. Literally being able to understand what you’re reading, right? The second and third pillar are related in the sense that one big difference about the Internet and everything before it, it’s interactive.
It’s not just one of these things where you grab a book, and then you sit down, and you crunch the book and then all of a sudden, you know what’s going on on the Internet. The Internet is adding probably hundreds if not thousands of books every second worth of material. So, I think you have to get involved. You have to look under the hood enough to understand.
I think a lot of folks have this idea that there’s technical and there’s non-technical. It’s a binary. They say, “Oh, I’m not technical, I’m not technical.” And I think it’s a false binary. Anyone who’s in any way “somewhat technical” they’ll be the first people to tell you that, okay, well they’re technical in a specific area. They know a certain thing. They know Python, or maybe they know how to code, or perhaps they know how networking works.
But they certainly don’t know all of the technology on the Internet. But what has made them different is because they have taken some technology that powers the internet and gone under the hood a bit, they understand how it works. Right? That has shown them that no technology is magic. All technology is a concatenation of clever tricks that comes to a sometimes potentially magical result.
So I think that once people have looked under the hood enough to realize, it’s not magic, it’s just sort of something that they can understand themselves, then they’re capable. They lose the fear of going deeper. So then once that over the world’s opened up to them, then they can go in and learn more.
I think that’s probably the main thing. If you get a little bit under the hood, you see what’s going on there, and realize that you can comprehend it. And then that will empower you to continue your search and continue your learning.
Chris: Oh man, I love that. I love the distinction that you’re making between technical and non-technical people because it’s something that I struggle with. I agree with you, is it is a false dichotomy. At the same time, everybody to some degree is technical and non-technical.
But it’s so much easier to explain when you’re having these conversations. So is there a better way to say that? I don’t know if there is. If somebody’s non-technical. Like how do you quickly say that, or describe that kind of person?
Brett Martin: I think that person just hasn’t been curious, yet. And maybe they’re curious, but they’re too inhibited or afraid, and they feel like people are gonna think they’re dumb for not understanding what’s going on. I mean I think you see this a lot. Here’s an example, the Internet is something that at this point most people are familiar with to some extent.
Although it’s surprising every year, I start off every semester of digital literacy with a picture of a blinking box, and I ask folks what it is, and most people don’t know. They don’t know the difference between their modem and their router.
But I think if you look at something like blockchain, most people, they don’t know how it works. But they’re afraid to admit that, and they’re scared to say that because people are banding around all this jargon, and because they’re afraid to say that, they nod their head.
And then they never learn. So, I think it’s a curiosity thing more than anything. And then the ability to speak out and be comfortable with your ignorance.
Chris: Yeah, if we switched it to applying to jobs or hiring someone and wondering if someone is digitally literate, are there things that you could look for? What specifically could you be looking for?
Brett Martin: It’s interesting, I just saw this talk at the Columbia, and it was a Ph.D. who had studied primates and their signaling behavior, beating their chest. And then he went to work at an investment firm where he was looking at investments and talking to entrepreneurs, and they were signaling with saying certain things.
And he did this research on jargon. And he was basically saying that people use jargon when they feel a bit intimidated. When they feel like they are of a lower social status than the people that they are trying to communicate to.
So when folks throw about a bunch of buzzwords, like artificial intelligence and they sprinkle it on top of everything, I think that’s usually a signal that they don’t really understand what’s going on very well. And the folks that can explain complex technical things in very simple layman terms, those are usually the folks that know what they’re talking about.
Chris: Oh, I love that. I think you tapped into something that’s real truth in the hiring and job market, which is the fact that people who are trying to impress, pretend they know more than they really do. And I think it’s easier to tell when someone’s not digitally literate, so to speak than if they are.
I think there are some dead giveaways, and I think you pointed out one with using jargon. Another that I’ve seen on the job when people are hiring is just throwing every single acronym out there. Like, we’re looking for a PHP, Java, PI developer. And you look at it sometimes like, that’s not a thing.
Nobody even knows all those languages. And sometimes that’s really intimidating. I remember even when I was first getting started out. I just assumed that people know more than me. You’re like, these people know more than me, they’re interviewing me. And the truth is, that’s not always the case, and it can be intimidating thinking, “I have to learn all of these things.”
But as you were saying before, if you’re really good at one thing – it’s like, just knowing one thing or not being so intimidated and diving into it is probably the first way to at least start and get that kind of education.
Brett Martin: Completely agree. I mean, I think everyone has a bit of an imposter syndrome going on at all times, and the insecure people are trying to bandy around language for fear of getting found out. Whereas the people that have been doing it for a long time, again it comes down to the same principals over and over again.
We’re talking about decentralization, so was Bill Gates when he was talking about putting a laptop on every desk instead of having a mainframe.
Why digitally literate people often have “T-Shaped skills”
Chris: What are T-shaped skills? Picture the way a T is, I think the top of the T is broad, so you’re broad in a lot of things, but I don’t know whatever you want to call that part. The deep part of the T, the part that goes down is deep.
I could give you an example of someone that we hired here at One Month who was just phenomenal on our team, was this guy Zach Valenti. He came on to do video editing and production, and we hired him for that. But when he got there, he had just a broad range of skills from being able to write well, being able to manage a few people, being able to even just like edit some code. He was not a developer, he was not necessarily just like a manager or a sales person, but was just kind of competent in enough of these things so that he was so valuable to our team. But he came in as this video person.
And when I think about digital literacy, I think having that broad top of the T for the tech skills, and then just at least one place where you can go a little bit deeper, or that you’re passionate about or good at or something like that. But not feeling like you have to do everything, ’cause that’s also kind of a recipe for disaster. What do you think?
Brett Martin: Well, I think it’s also one of those things whereby going deep and getting mastery on at least one vertical of skills, often times there’s so many patterns and analogies that you get from mastering one skill that can be applied to something completely different.
It’s why banks love hiring people out of college athlete programs. Like, employers love hiring college athletes, and why does playing basketball or running, what does that really have to do with sitting behind a desk and making models at an investment bank?
It’s because so many of those other skills that it takes to create mastery, discipline, hard work, gradual improvement. All of those concepts are transferable across domains. So, having the deep part of the T shows that you have to learn those sort of transferable skills to get deep in any particular subject area matter.
Chris: I love that. Yeah, I think that’s so important. And it brings me to my next question, which is, why are MBA’s learning to code? Why do MBA’s need to take digital literacy? MBA’s, the business is traditionally this place where you learn finance, you learn about the economy. I didn’t go to business school, did you?
Brett Martin: I can’t say I did either.
Why are MBAs learning to code?
Brett Martin: Actually, an MBA sort of once explained me to this best. So I was interviewing for TA’s in my class, and I was speaking to this one young woman, and saw that she was taking a bunch of Python courses at Columbia, at the business school.
She wanted to go into marketing or something like that. And I was like, “Well, why are you taking all these Python classes?” She goes, “I think that Python will be to my generation what Excel was to yours.”
Chris: She said that to you? Nice.
Brett Martin: Yeah, I think that’s a pretty fair viewpoint. In the same way that programming languages have gotten – which are fundamental tools. Programming languages are just tools to manipulate data. They’ve gotten more and more powerful over time.
So back in the day, you set up to write lines and lines of code just to get a machine to do anything. But since then, programming languages have become more and more powerful, more and more is baked in, more and more functionally comes out of the box. And I think in the same way, productivity tools, like once upon a time, people had just big spreadsheet which was literally a piece of paper that people wrote numbers on and used to organize numbers.
And then someone turned it into an Excel spreadsheet. And now we’re turning Excel spreadsheets. If you look at a product like Clay or Airtable, where people are turning spreadsheets into databases. Right?
When I was working on Wall Street, we would use Excel to crunch the numbers. But now, companies are looking for people with even more skills and more depth, with being able to manipulate data. And so Python is kind of par for the course these days, I think.
Chris: Yeah, well said. Yeah. As well as SQL for querying databases as well.
Brett Martin: Exactly. So I think it’s just, tools have gotten more powerful. And in the same way that I watch teenagers create social media with a mixture of dread and envy. I will say, they’re certainly much more handy with their phones. They can use the tool twice as quickly as I can, which is kind of a terrifying thought.
Chris’s Definition of Digital Literacy
Chris: Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, that kind of makes me think of one of the new definitions that I’ve been working with for:
Digital literacy: being able to solve problems, and have the best tool for the job.
What “software is eating the world” means
Brett Martin: I think it’s funny, with your T-shaped model, again, it can be digital now because digital is ubiquitous. It’s baked into every technology. And we talked about this before, this Marc Andreessen, founder of Netscape, one of the original browsers.
He has this phrase called ‘’software is eating the world.’’ And by that, he means that in traditionally analog industries like trucking or shipping or healthcare had always been purely offline. Purely clipboards and notebooks and paper which are becoming digitized. And people are using digital technology to solve problems in those domains that were before never affected by digital technology.
In that sense, your ability to use digital technology to solve a novel problem, or maybe an old problem that no one had figured out, that’s certainly a measure of fluency, couldn’t agree more.
Chris: Yeah, and I love the reference to the article, it’s an article that Andreessen wrote, I think it’s in the Wall Street Journal. Software is eating the world, that’s a definite read I think. I don’t want to say that you’re going to become digitally literate by reading it. But I would say that this is one of the canonical places to start.
In 2010 when he wrote it, just talking about the influence that software is having and everything’s becoming software. It’s really great, and I know we both talk about it in our course.
Airtable vs. Excel vs. Python
Coming back to this idea of having tools to solve the job and software eating the world, I think that’s exactly what’s happening. Because I think your example of Airtable is really wonderful, or Excel becoming Python. And also, just side note, if you haven’t checked out Airtable just go check it out. I mean, it’s a small company that’s starting, well smaller. It’s a new company that’s basically making Excel sheets that are more like databases. Like, the line’s becoming blurry and operating.
I guess my other point is, you don’t always want to throw code at a problem. And I see that too often. I’d say that goes on my list of, you don’t actually know what you’re doing.
A lot of startups, a lot of people new to programming will see that you can solve something with code, and then really engineer or take months to build something, or just do it in a difficult way because you can, or you just learned this skill.
I teach a course called programming for non-programmers. But as part of that teaching non-programmers about programming, get ready for this, but one of the lessons is, non-programmers for programmers because once you become a programmer, you want to change – everything becomes code.
But actually, you need to know when to choose the right skill for the job. I guess that’s kind of what it comes down to. So it’s about having that kind of broad, T-shaped broadness of knowing all the tools. But then that kind of principals, and experience even of, “Oh, even though I can use an ax, I need to use a hammer.” Whatever it is. Making those decisions will save you a lot of time, a lot of money and make you more digitally literate, I believe.
Digital literacy is the ability to know when to use certain digital tools (and when not to)
Brett Martin: Yeah. The experience to know how to use a tool, the wisdom to not have to.
Chris: That’s it, that’s it right there. I think that’s a big part of being digitally literate. And yeah, you can see that when you work with people. And it takes time. It’s a skill. It’s like going to the gym, it’s like a muscle that you build up. I think that’s through experience, not being afraid to fail, and all that goes into building a skill.
Brett Martin: I know plenty of front end designers that are perfectly capable of coding a website but will use Squarespace to stand one up.
Chris: That’s a perfect example. And when I was guest lecturing in your class last week, that question was asked. It was, “Okay, now we’ve been coding. We made this website from scratch in less than an hour, does this mean I should from now on do websites this way?” And my answer was exactly that.
A lot of cases, like Squarespace – this isn’t an advertisement for them, it could just as easily be WordPress or Wix or whatever. But if you just need a simple webpage put up without a lot of customization, basically with coding, or basically we’re talking about solving problems, and that problem has been solved by, for example, Squarespace.
And so, you don’t need to recreate the wheel. But there are times when you do want to do the code from scratch and yeah, maybe the example of that decision would be if you need certain kinds of customization. I would say maybe if you want to scale the company, but also even, in that case, I’d probably want to wait until you actually had users.
But anyway, we could probably think through a lot of kind of when to use the right tool for that. But Squarespace might be fine.
Brett Martin: Yeah, I mean, not everything. That’s when we talk about looking at good engineers versus not so great engineers. Not so good engineers always over-engineer the darn thing. They build twice as much as they need to.
The best programmers to work with are the ones that tell you not to write that code and give you a much simpler way of solving it. Because it probably doesn’t even involve code in the first place.
Chris: Yeah, got it. The not so good engineers use code jargon, and they just code all these words, and it’s like if you don’t know what you’re talking about, you get code jargon project.
Brett Martin: When you’re a hammer, all the world’s a nail.
Best resources for staying up to date on technology?
Brett Martin: Yeah I mean, in my class I offer a list of reading resources. For me, it’s all different newsletters. I love the Axios newsletters, Inside AI newsletter’s really good. Benedict Evans, Andreessen Horowitz writes a great newsletter about big moves in tech.
And then in terms of books, again, this stuff moves so quickly. It’s not really in book form, but I will say that the classic Crossing the Chasm is a wonderful book to think about technology cycles.
And then if you want to get really nerdy with it, Carlota Perez is a Venezuelan economist who explains how financial and social systems interact, and she talks about how long term technology cycles, and how they’re influenced by the culture and finance.
That is an excellent way of understanding where do we sit in the middle of the information technology revolution, and it gives you a really great foundation for thinking about change over the long term.
Brett Martin: She wrote a book A Technology Revolution and Financial Capital, that’s what it’s called.
What is your favorite online hack?
Brett Martin: If you don’t have the Honey plugin installed on your browser, then you’re passing up some easy cash. I’m thinking in terms of practical things, it’s a great little plugin that you add, and then every time you’re in checkout, it looks to see if it can find promo codes of the web that it will automatically add and save you money every time you buy something. That’s a pretty nice little trick.
And Dark Sky, which anyone who doesn’t have that yet is missing out. It’s hyper-local weather. Been around for years, but it’s great. As opposed to some weather channel, which just says, it’s rainy in New York City today. Dark Sky will let you know exactly where the clouds are and how long it’s gonna be, give you notifications in terms of when it might rain on you.
Chris: I love it. And that’s also part of One Month’s Learn Python course that we have here. There’s a whole lecture, you build a project using the Dark Sky API to make basically your own weather app using Python. So, definitely familiar with that over here.
Brett Martin: Awesome.
Chris: Yeah, Dark Sky is a great app. Cool, well this has been super fun. Thanks for coming on the show, Brett.
Brett Martin: Hey, Chris, thank you so much for having me, always a pleasure jamming with you, and looking forward to checking out your history of the Internet.
Chris: Thanks Brett, I’ll talk to you soon.
Brett Martin: Take care.
Alright, thank you for listening to another episode of the Learn to Code podcast with One Month. If you enjoyed this episode, you can find all of the links and show notes and transcripts at onemonth.com, if you go for it there and search for it, you will find it.
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